Why are simple PCBs difficult to lay out in "High-end" PCB layout packages?

[treez]

Re: Why are simple PCBs difficult to lay out in "High-end" PCB layout packages?

The thing is that the High-end PCB package Apps guys are left to sell the high-end PCB layout packages.
These Apps guys make money by moonlighting as PCB layout engineers, so its not in their interest to train up loads of people to competently use their package.
Also, theses Apps guys would stamp out any effective “getting started” guides for their package, because if such existed , then no-one would need to pay Apps guys to come and give them “training sessions”.

 

[Dan Mills]

Re: Why are simple PCBs difficult to lay out in "High-end" PCB layout packages?

I don't think I have ever had an apps guy come in to give a training session in anything (Having a phone support contract is of course a different thing)!

Further I think you do both the vendors support people (Generally very good IME) and the layout and library folks at your employers a severe disservice, not all the world is some sort of Machiavellian scheme to screw the company (And if that happens where you work, there is little that a CAD tool can do about a human problem).

For a two day contract I would want a couple of grand as well (Just for the pain in the arse factor of such a stupid little contract), nothing wrong with that.
£50/Hr sounds like a fairly standard contracting rate to me for a 6 month sort of contract, nothing at all out of line there (Remember contractors don't get holiday pay, pension, sick pay, any of that stuff, so they typically headline at about twice to three times what an employee would work out at).

Could somebody be playing games as a librarian? Sure, but the rest of the engineering shop would notice really, really, quickly. Never mind the engineering manager, the other engineers would in my experience take someone routinely checking in broken library parts out behind the woodshed to administer a righteous beating long before manglement got involved. Engineers in my experience (at least the ones I try to hire) take some pride in their designs and are never shy about calling out when something is not being done right.

If the engineering manager is not an engineer then there should be a chief engineer, engineering lead, something of that sort of job title who keeps an eye on things like conformance to standards, code reviews, data management, all that technical stuff and reports to the engineering manager.
Seriously a non engineer cannot meaningfully review details of engineering work, how for example can you expect someone like that to review VHDL or linker scripts or build files? BOM Cost and schedules are the proper domain of that sort of manager (Which absolutely does have its value, together with sitting in boring sales meetings and sometimes dealing with HR friction), but engineering work product reviews need to done by an engineer.

Regards, Dan.

 

[marce]

Re: Why are simple PCBs difficult to lay out in "High-end" PCB layout packages?

A PCB is the most critical part of any electronics assembly, your view on PCBs and PCB design needs to reflect this.....
You generalise to much and with no facts to support the generalisations.... #41 above... app guys that sell understand the software NOT PCB design, I don't know any moonlighting app guys doing PCBs.... In fact it is a rather worrying and neurotic post, not based on any facts... In fact I find your whole view of the UK electronics industry rather strange and different to what I have experienced over the last 30+ years of working in it.
You obviously know Eagle so use this as software all should attain too when it is very limited... and is not used that much in the Commercial world (they release figures every year.....)
And finally, my view is if you cant master the software then you shouldn't be doing PCB design....

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Hello,
No doubt then , that all would agree to the following test to see if high end PCB layout programs really are hard or easy……
In order to see if High end PCB Layout programs are not more difficult than they should be, a test should be done as follows….

Thirty electronics graduates should be chosen at random, none of whom should have any prior experience of using a high end PCB layout program…

They should each be given the task (over 8 hours in a day) of making a 2cm by 2cm PCB (1.6mm thick) comprising nothing more than a 0805 resistor and 0603 capacitor connected in parallel on the top layer. The bottom layer should be completely covered in copper, to within 1mm of the edge of the PCB and should be connected by three vias (round, 0.6mm hole diameter, 1.2mm total diameter) to the net of one terminal of the resistor/capacitor. The components should be named “R1” and “C1” in silkscreen.
There should be solder resist correctly covering the top layer, except for over the solder mask, which would be outside 0.2mm outside the copper of the resistor/capacitor pads.
There should be a solder paste layer, covering each pad of the R and C to within 0.2mm of the pad’s edges.
A rectangular silkscreen “box” of 0.3mm line thickness should surround each component. Any silkscreen should never be nearer than 0.3mm to a pad.
Different net copper should be at least 0.3mm apart.
No part of any pad should be nearer than 1mm to a via hole.
Via holes should be at least 1mm apart.
No hole should be nearer than 1mm from the board edge.
Each of the components should be correctly placed into a library named “TEST”. The components should have their centres correctly centred so that a file of pick-n-place coordinates can be delivered to the PCB assemblers.
There should be no solder resist on the bottom layer.

After finishing the PCB, the gerber files should be correctly produced, to include layers as follows…top copper, bottom copper, silkscreen, solder mask, solder paste.

The trial people will each be given a pre-made version of this PCB , so they have a better idea of what it is they are meant to do.

Let’s get this test done with a high end PCB layout program, and lets see just how easy these high end PCB layout programs are not!

The result of all this, will be that the Government works out what a shambles the high end PCB layout fraternity is, and realises that this is holding up the country’s industry, meaning a reduction in tax revenue due to lower productivity….then the government will sort it out…By either askin for proper “simplified guides” to be made, or a new PCB layout program made, or rather, just stick with Eagle for simple boards, and make an augmented Eagle for the DDR3 type boards.

A PCB is a simple structure, there is no earthly reason why laying out a simple PCB in a high end PCB layout program should be difficult.

If laying out a simple PCB in Eagle is simple (which it is), then why is this not simple to do in a high end PCB layout program?

(by the way, the above trialees should have internet access throughout the 8 hours)

This is a silly post and just further makes PCB design a non skill that everyone can do.... PCB design like all other engineering disciplines takes training. This idea suggest that anyone can do a PCB and further undermines the fact that it has to be learned and requires certain skills. This test would prove absolutely nothing, be a pointless waste of time and would not help UK electronics in any way.

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Thanks.
I know that you are a very competent person.
You chose to do engineering so you are a decent guy, prepared to work for your pay, a doer, a tryer.
But look at what you have said, it echos what so many others say…..you are expressing how very difficult for you it was to learn the high end tools.

It should be obvious to all of us that most PCBs are simple, its bits of copper stuck to a bit of fibreglass, with bits of solder resist etc……..there is no earthly reason that any PCB CAD Package should be difficult. These tools are made more difficult than they need to be.

Someone said to me that high-end PCB packages MUST be difficult because they can do all sorts of things…….well that doesn’t make sense…..my laptop can do fantastically complicated calculations, but its still easy to use it to do 2+2 in the provided windows calculator.

The "TEST" of the post#31 above is coming soon, someone from a big UK newspaper has contacted me through someone else, and they want to go ahead with it...they have the headline ready for the newspaper for after the test......"UK electronics graduates cannot make simple circuit board".
By the way, it is not myself that is driving this PCB “TEST” of post#31, I am just a go-between here. It is so widely known and acknowledged that the PCB layout fraternity needs shaking up, that this is what is now happening.

If this test is done and published I will do everything in my power to ridicule and oppose it for reasons stated earlier, it is pointless and does absolutely no good for PCB design and UK electronics, it is a silly scare mongering, unsubstantiated view of what is really going on and brings nothing to further PCB design or the view that there are certain skills required to do the job (like all jobs, training and education).

 

[treez]

Re: Why are simple PCBs difficult to lay out in "High-end" PCB layout packages?

OK thanks, but as you know, whether or not I personally can manage any software is of no importance. The fact that there is a vast shortage of people (certainly in UK) who can’T manage high-end layout software, to the point that companies get charged £3700 for 2 days work, -this is a problem.

I can only name one large UK electronics co and that’s Dyson, -a brilliant company but its only one place.
A lot of the small uk co’s are surviving on gov’t grants deriving from north sea oil.
When north sea oil runs out we’ve had it. –Because we’ve let things slide so far in the engineering industry.
The Oil is making sterling high at present, this makes it difficult for engineering/manufacturing industry to survive and export. (one of the reasons that UK has ABSOLUTELY NO car industry…even Morgan cars use BMW engines)

What UK (and other countries of course) needs to do , is make its electronics industry leaner in these times when sterling is high…ready for when north sea oil runs out…and by leaner I mean eg make good “getting started” guides for high-end layout packages…80% of UK citizen electronics graduates never get into the electronics industry….of the 20% who do, the majority only make it into sales jobs.
These 80% could become high-end pcb package operators if the tutorials for them were made easier.
The Victorian English way is to make stuff overly hard and then slate people for falling short. –Like making a football team play in Wellington boots then slating them for loosing the games.
We need to get the PCB “TEST” of post#31 done, and then get good tutorials made.

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If I can manage to write the attached PCB layout guide for SMPS, then why is it that I cannot manage a high-end PCB payout package in 2 days to do the test of post#31?
Its because these packages are too poorly tutorialed, and therefore favour individuals with great IT skills who are of the “computer hacker” ilk.

 

[marce]

Re: Why are simple PCBs difficult to lay out in "High-end" PCB layout packages?

The test is flawed and pointless....

https://www.electro-tech-online.com...sts-of-pcb-layout-program-use-ability.147026/

Why are Dyson lauded as the only UK electronics company! Look around, get some facts first.....
This seems to be about your inability to use a high end PCB package and a rant because you lost a position recently, I can see no other worth to this thread anymore.
Bye

 

[treez]

Re: Why are simple PCBs difficult to lay out in "High-end" PCB layout packages?

Pretty much the only "large UK" electronics company...seriously, compare UK electronics/engineering co's with German ones. There are far more in Germany

 

[marce]

Re: Why are simple PCBs difficult to lay out in "High-end" PCB layout packages?

Dyson make Vacs and other consumer goods, not a lot of PCBs, if you looked round you could find many more companies involved in electronic design and manufacture...
BAE Systems, RR, Cobham, just to name 3 large UK companies, many, many more..............

 

[treez]

Re: Why are simple PCBs difficult to lay out in "High-end" PCB layout packages?

by the way, the document of post #44, on pages 28 to 29, details a true story of a time in a large company when the company’s PCB Layout package operator was not able to properly lay out an smps, and faulty circuit operation ensued. This is one of my points, -that often the people who use these 'high-end' layout packages are picked for the job because they have the I.T. (‘computer hacking’ type skills) skills needed to manage these layout packages, but often, such people have difficulty with the electrical aspects of the layout.
However, people who have the necessary electrical knowledge often just can’t get ‘off the ground’ quick enough with these layout packages, (because the tutorials are too poor) so they never get selected to be given time on them.
Very often, Engineering managers/directors are not so technical, and they make the assumption that the person who can successfully “navigate” the PCB layout package quickest, is obviously the cleverest, and therefore the one to whom the layout job should be given…….and this of course completely ignores the fact that such people often don’t have a clue about the electrical and thermal aspects of layout.
If proper tutorial guides were given for the features of these layout packages, then this problem would not happen so much.

Also, the large number of UK (and in whatever other country) students who leave electronics degrees/HNDs/HNCs etc etc, and who never manage to get a job in the electronics industry, would be able to work as PCB layout staff in companies.

I know quite a few electronics companies in UK where the PCB Layout guy’s main job is Mechanical Engineer. –These mech engineers, as you know, have to use solidworks etc, and they are often the types that have good IT skills, and so they get selected to use the company’s PCB layout software….needless to say, this can cause problems with electrical layout issues.
Again, lets make these packages easier to use for people who have had some hardware electrical training/experience. These type of people often lack great IT skills…I guess in many ways that’s why they didn’t become software engineers, in a country like UK (and others), where there are more jobs in software than hardware.

 

[marce]

Re: Why are simple PCBs difficult to lay out in "High-end" PCB layout packages?

It has nothing to do with IT skills, they are not hard to use they just require you to RTFM....
As said I have worked in electronics for many years I know many more people who have worked in electronics for many years, none of us see it like you do, not one person I know....
This does seem to be an endless rant against high end packages and sycophantic ramblings about how wonderful eagle is.....

 

[FlapJack]

Re: Why are simple PCBs difficult to lay out in "High-end" PCB layout packages?

Back to the future.

Well when this thread runs out you can read it again here.

https://www.edaboard.com/threads/297322/

 

[marce]

Re: Why are simple PCBs difficult to lay out in "High-end" PCB layout packages?

I knew I had a feeling of Deja Vu....:grin:

 

[treez]

Re: Why are simple PCBs difficult to lay out in "High-end" PCB layout packages?

That previous post didn’t mention that with high-end PCB layout packages, you can’t practice them at home because they are too expensive…You can practice Eagle at home because it has a free version. (however, you don’t need to practice eagle as its so simple).
I think many Engineering managers will be smiling at this thread, because they know of a “nice use” for high-end PCB layout packages in their current “hard-to-understand” form…..
Picture this if you will, a 2-year graduate electronics engineer (who hasn’t used PCB layout software before) asks for their first pay rise.
Hmmm…..What the Engineering Manager then does, is set them a very simple test circuit to draw and lay out on the company’s high-end PCB layout package (knowing full well that the graduate will struggle like heck and not manage to get it done in a few days). The PCB dept will be told not to give the graduate any advice for the test.

After the graduate has failed to complete the job after two or three days, the Engineering Manager then pulls the graduate aside and informs him/her that they are not worth the pay rise…after all, they can’t even lay a simple circuit out in a couple of days.

 

[NIKHILRAJ]

Re: Why are simple PCBs difficult to lay out in "High-end" PCB layout packages?

this topic not ended yet!!!!
ATTITUDE plays a major role in your career success than your exceptional skills ... every human beings have some skills to learn new things and use it for their career. It is not only Albert Einstein but people with normal IQ also bought some changes to the world .

 

[treez]

Re: Why are simple PCBs difficult to lay out in "High-end" PCB layout packages?

My attitude is that its best if the work of new PCB layout engineers is facilitated as far as possible, without unnecessary obstacles thrown in the way. And £3700/hr for two days work is excessive (post#40).

 

[FvM]

Re: Why are simple PCBs difficult to lay out in "High-end" PCB layout packages?

I experience that "the work of new PCB layout engineers is facilitated" a lot by all major tool vendors, particularly with tutorials and design examples, conceding that they may not be equally suited for anyone. I remember that whenever I felt the need to evaluate the handling of a specific tool, I could in a few days.

Although I agree with marce that the proposed "CAD tool for dummies" tutorial project (see post #31 and #38) is purposeless, I believe that it could be even implemented. All-in-all it may be not so far from some "first steps" tutorials issued by tool vendors.

The £3700/2d thing seems off-topic in my view, or at least very loosely related to the problem. Consulting fees are freely negotiable, nobody needs to claim or to pay it.

I also see that the discussion is running in circles, if no new viewpoints can be contributed, we should end it for the time being. But don't see a need to close it forcefully.

 

[Mattylad]

Re: Why are simple PCBs difficult to lay out in "High-end" PCB layout packages?

I am equally capable of using a high end package to do large complicated, high speed - controlled impedance boards and simple interface or PSU boards in the same high end package.

I'm not so sure that the same applies to something like Eagle, I would be pulling my hair out within a few minutes trying to understand how it works or what to do in order to do anything. This is because I have learnt how to operate my current tool.

It had little annoying features, as does every single other package including Eagle.

The whole discussion is pretty pointless and stupid - you excel in what you have learned and fail with what you have not. The same applies to all sorts of things from PCB CAD packages to driving cars.

It would not go down well if I kept driving my bosses LandRover with the handbrake on because I cannot find the lever that my car has - thats if I could find where to put the key it does not have.

I can however see how a LandRover is far better for some things that my Punto is not and hence why it is a lot more expensive.

 

[FlapJack]

Re: Why are simple PCBs difficult to lay out in "High-end" PCB layout packages?

Treez, you can practice the high end PCB programs at home. I have looked at many of them over the years. They are free for the asking. Some are unlimited for 30 days and then go in to demo mode like not being able to save. Some stay unlimited but only allow a small number of pins. Or other limitations that allow you to investigate and learn the program.

It has been years, but Altium gave me a free demo program and even let me join there forum with unlimited access to ask questions and i was invited to join telephone/web demos of the software so any questions could be answered as the demo goes on.

BTW, some of these programs really clobber each other. You load one in and another stops working. I used a separate computer just for trial software.

P.S.

I had not used eagle since version 4. Last night i tried version 7.5. It is better than it was but it falls down fairly quickly for me. I look for basic easy to use functionality.

For the schematic part i tried routing a few connections and found out if you want a dot at every junction you have to manually put it there.

For the PCB side i tried manually routing a few connections. It happily let me violate all the net connection rules by not even complaining when i routed wires to pins that were in different nets (the sch side did complain).

In my opinion, Eagle with no limitations is a $100.00 hobbyist level program that should be used for 2 to 4 layer, low to medium density boards.

 

[treez]

Re: Why are simple PCBs difficult to lay out in "High-end" PCB layout packages?

Eagle is fine by me, Its the one that I could use straight off.
You can do a DRC to check if one net is too close to another in eagle and it will tell you.
For SMPS and many other boards, eagle is fine.
It doesn't bother me putting the odd dot on the odd junction.

But yes, you cannot lay out a computer motherboard type pcb in eagle...eagle cant do track push, track auto stop or diff pair bus routing.

And yes, if someone has somehow learned a high-end pcb package, then I don't debate that "for them" , its better than eagle.

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Treez, you can practice the high end PCB programs at home. I have looked at many of them over the years. They are free for the asking. Some are unlimited for 30 days and then go in to demo mode like not being able to save.

demo mode not being able to save is not too much use.
As discussed, I used altium 5 years ago and was unable to download a free trial......I was desperate to learn it because there were terrible pcbs that needed mod'ing, and the co' was looking like closing if they were not mod'ed, so I wanted to learn altium as they wouldnt let us use eagle...that company now closed, or rather, they took over their biggest competitor and sacked most their own staff.

 

[marce]

Re: Why are simple PCBs difficult to lay out in "High-end" PCB layout packages?

That previous post didn’t mention that with high-end PCB layout packages, you can’t practice them at home because they are too expensive…You can practice Eagle at home because it has a free version. (however, you don’t need to practice eagle as its so simple).
I think many Engineering managers will be smiling at this thread, because they know of a “nice use” for high-end PCB layout packages in their current “hard-to-understand” form…..
Picture this if you will, a 2-year graduate electronics engineer (who hasn’t used PCB layout software before) asks for their first pay rise.
Hmmm…..What the Engineering Manager then does, is set them a very simple test circuit to draw and lay out on the company’s high-end PCB layout package (knowing full well that the graduate will struggle like heck and not manage to get it done in a few days). The PCB dept will be told not to give the graduate any advice for the test.

After the graduate has failed to complete the job after two or three days, the Engineering Manager then pulls the graduate aside and informs him/her that they are not worth the pay rise…after all, they can’t even lay a simple circuit out in a couple of days.

How would this motivate staff.... you live in a dark little world and seem to have some serious grudges to bear...

 

[treez]

Re: Why are simple PCBs difficult to lay out in "High-end" PCB layout packages?

This post directly discusses why PCB layout packages need to stop being more complex than they need to be:

I was working as a contractor in an electronics company once and was served a cup of coffee (on a Friday afternoon) by a mechanical engineer which severely burned my throat (so much so that I couldn’t sleep the entire weekend and went back to work on Monday am with just about 2 hours of sleep over the entire weekend)
I was the only Electronics engineer working in this company.
The situation was that I had to design a 150W Buck LED driver. That was no problem and I did that bit of the job fast. However, on the same PCB as the LED driver , there was a lot of control circuitry that had to be squeezed on to a tiny area of the PCB. This control circuitry was taking me ages to layout due to the small area of the PCB that it had to be squeezed on to. During this time, the general staff of the company (office staff, production staff, mechanical engineers etc etc) decided that I was obviously not up to the job (due to the amount of time it was taking me to finish the PCB).
..There was much discontent and I could hear them murmuring about me, but I just kept working. I heard the mechanical engineer telling the Engineering Director to get another engineer in to replace me due to the time the PCB was taking me. Then a mechanical engineer offered me a coffee which I accepted. I took one small sip and swallowed and could then feel it burning my throat , and gullet, all the way down to my stomach. As discussed, the stomach burn seemed to heal, but the back-of-throat burn kept stinging throughout the entire weekend and meant I barely slept for the whole weekend.

Someone said that the coffee must have just “accidentally” had some dishwasher chemical in it before he poured the coffee in, but I just do not believe that that much dishwasher chemical could have been left in a coffee cup taken from a dishwasher.
Anyway, this is one reason PCB layout packages need to stop being made harder than they need to be…other engineers agree with me. Do you agree?