spark retard unit for car

[dope40]

Hi, i want to build spark retard unit for my car but i cant find anything on the internet ..... if there is someone out there who can help me i will be very grateful. The point is to delay the spark for no more than 10 degree

 

[tpetar]

Re: spark retard unit help

Can you mechanicaly adjust degree of ignition ?


Best regards,
Peter

 

[crutschow]

Re: spark retard unit help

Do you want the delay to be inversely proportional to engine speed, as a normal spark advance circuit would do?

 

[chuckey]

Re: spark retard unit help

In old fashioned Kettering ignition setups, the retard is done by the inlet vacuum moving the base plate of the distributor. In modern ECU ignition circuits, I believe it is done on the sensors, and the micro, just running the engine on the edge of pre-ignition. Oh yes, and on antique cars, by a rotary lever on the steering wheel. How are you intending to do it?
Frank

 

[dope40]

Re: spark retard unit help

Can you mechanicaly adjust degree of ignition

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No i cant

Do you want the delay to be inversely proportional to engine speed, as a normal spark advance circuit would do?

i want to retard it proportional to the engine RPM .... so i think i have to fool the Cranckshaf position signal going to the ECU

 

[crutschow]

Re: spark retard unit help

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...................
i want to retard it proportional to the engine RPM .... so i think i have to fool the Cranckshaf position signal going to the ECU

Do you know how fast you want the retard to occur? In other words at what speed to you want maximum retard and what speed do you want minimum retard?

Do you know what the position signal looks like?

Why do you want to retard the spark? That generally leads to lower power from the engine.

 

[dope40]

Re: spark retard unit help

Do you know what the position signal looks like?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuIislTGOwA - this is how the sensor works

i need the retard to be no more than 10 degree so the detonation can occur later so it detonates in the exhaust manifold and it can spin the turbine , so it can minimize the turbo lag when the trottle is released .... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antilag_system#Retarding_ignition

 

[dope40]

Re: spark retard unit help

Can anyone help me .... please

 

[tpetar]

Re: spark retard unit help

What car and engine ?


Best regards,
Peter

 

[dope40]

Re: spark retard unit help

The car is Opel Calibra and the engine is 20NE

 

[tpetar]

Re: spark retard unit help

The car is Opel Calibra and the engine is 20NE

Engines E16NZ / C16NZ / C16LZ / 16SV / E18NV / 20Ne / C20NE / 20SEH have octane jack/switch (91/95 - 95/98), with which you can adjust engine to used gasoline. Its resistor which tells ECU what fuel is used, then ECU adjust angle of ignition. Also you should use ignition cables with resistive core.

Try resistor with 470Ω. Resistor with value 220Ω is for 95 octane, and 0Ω is for 91 octane. 91/95 is for US market, 95/98 is for EU market. Three positions 91-95-98, and for 91 you should remove resistor because its 0Ω. Lets say 95 is normal position, and with 470R you will push 3 degree to retard.

Now if you dont have resistor (0Ω for 91 octane), car must be very lazy.





Additional read this material :



RON Plug
A RON plug stands for "Research Octane Number" or also known as Octane Rating Plugs. These were introduced in 1987 on engines with fixed ignition distributors. That means you can no longer adjust the timing with a strobe gun as the ECU now automatically works out the advance or retard on the timing (usually with the help of a Knock Sensor). The RON plug value retards the timing a fixed amount.

Their main function is to prevent detonation (otherwise known as 'pinking') when using unleaded fuel. The plug is wired into the ECU (Engine Control Unit) wire loom so that it can be fitted into one of two positions. You simply unplug the RON plug and turn it over to be another value.

Inside the plug are two different fixed value resistors. The ECU provides a 5v reference source to the RON plug connector (see figure 4). When this signal is connected to earth, via the RON plug fitted which has a resistor inside, a voltage level lower than the 5v source will be returned to the ECU. The ECU may modify both the basic timing and fuel injection maps. Hence this RON code plug will advance up the ignition at different rates. The amount of advance under load is approx. 5deg less when coded for unleaded (95) than for premium (98) leaded fuel.

**broken link removed**

**broken link removed**




Best regards,
Peter


:wink:

 

[dope40]

Re: spark retard unit help

I want the retard to be in a diferent circuit so i can triger it when i need so i can use it as an antilag system.

 

[tpetar]

Re: spark retard unit help

Usually people make switch near dash board for 91-95-98. Each switch position represent specific resistor value.

For different circuit and own triggering of ignition you should make circuit which control ignition for each cylinder, which can lead to ECU error.

Better make whole new ignition system and replace existing, this will require remmaping of existing ECU software.



Best regards,
Peter

 

[pinout]

Re: spark retard unit help

I just posted a link to a great PDF search engine
https://www.edaboard.com/threads/298588/
Try this with "spark retard" and see the results, OK some are old, but the information is good.
I know it doesn't help with your immediate question, but it may help with your future plans.

I'm certainly going to read up about the RON plug and see if I can 'have a play'!

 

[dope40]

Re: spark retard unit help

I am sorry to say that i didnt find anything on the search engine ... but nevertheless i found tons of helping material for other projects.So i guess it did help . My biggest problem is that i have to retard the spark approximately 10° the, but with the RON plug i can only take it to approximately 3° (or so i understood ). I guess if i delayed the CPS signal going to the ECU it could work.

 

[dope40]

Re: spark retard unit help

Does anyone have an idea for a circuit that replicates the input signal with some delay or phase shift.?

 

[chuckey]

Re: spark retard unit help

For the delay I would engineer a sawtooth generator driven by the TDC/spark transducer. So lets say the speed range is 16mS (1/600 RPM) to 1.6mS (1/6000 RPM). So at TDC the sawtooth is reset to +5V, it then FALLS at a rate of 1V / mS. If we have a comparator with one input held at 4.8V, the sawtooth going to the other. So the comparator will flip over when the sawtooth input falls to 4.8V, which at 1V/mS is( 5-4.8)/1 mS = .2 mS, this corresponds to a delay of .2/16 X 360 degrees at 600 RPM = 4.5 degrees, at 6000 this corresponds to .2/1.6 = 45 degrees. So by fiddling the sawtooth rate and the trip level of the comparator you should be able to get the desired results.
Frank

 

[dope40]

Re: spark retard unit help

Sorry i didn't understood it completely . is it possible to show a circuit of your idea.

 

[dope40]

Re: spark retard unit help

i want the delay of the output signal to be controlled by the frequency to voltage converter, so does anybody know of a circuit that could work??

 

[BradtheRad]

Re: spark retard unit help

This simulation demonstrates a concept. However it will need more work to adapt it to your ignition system.

The same circuit is used with two different frequencies (600 and 4800 Hz).

The pulse train is delayed by a fixed time interval. The delay might end up being ten degrees for one frequency, but not for other frequencies. This means your specified ten degree delay will not be easy to achieve at all engine speeds.