danny davis
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Using a DUAL TRACE SCOPE, You would put One into channel-1 and the other into channal-2
This will allow you to see the Phases, Relative to each other.
Hi Gary,Danny, Sorry I Give up on your Posts.
You need to take some ELectronic Courses.
If the scope trigger selector has a "AC line" option, you cannot use it because, as you said, it is only for triggering with 60 Hz.
If you need to trigger to the same 400 Hz that is powering the boards under test, then connect whatever signal you have that is synchronous with that 400 Hz power to the EXT input and select "EXT Trigger" in your trigger selector.
If the only signal you can find that is synchronous with that 400 Hz is the actual 120-volt power itself, check your scope's EXT input voltage rating to make sure the 120 volts is not too high. If it is you will have to reduce the voltage with a transformer or something.
I think a bigger problem is safety when working with power like this. If you are scoping signals that are tied to the 400 Hz power supply, you should make sure the chassis of your scope is grounded so that a ground lead from your scope doesn't make your entire scope "hot" with 400 Hz power.
My Manager said you use the EXT input jack for:
1.) A circuit's Clock or Phase loop lock signal can go to the EXT input jack
2.) Function Generators clock output can go to the EXT input jack
3.) Sync the O-scope to the Main lines at a difference frequency
I don't understand you.Any reason why the O-scope can trigger , because of why? the waveforms are Free running when they aren't in SYNC with the 400hz
The O-scope and the circuit board under test have to MATCH the same MAIN Lines that you plug into the wall?
it is called external sync.Yes I did this and it works, but what is this Called when you SYNC the o scope to a different main line frequency? because it's not sync to 60hz it's sync to 400hz
if you are going to start floating your scope and scoping high voltage signals, knowing as little as you do, I don't want to encourage you and get you electrocuted. You need someone standing next to you who understands what is going on to keep you safe. In the meantime, confine your measurements to low voltage circuits.Yes what is a good AC isolation transformers for O-scopes?
Would I need an AC 115v 400hz Isolation transformer? for my O scope?
That depends on what you want to see with the scope.why do u have to use the external sync to 400hz to do the measurements why can't i keep it at 60hz? why does the o-scope have to be sync to 400hz?
Usually the EXT input is for triggering only. It cannot be displayed like another trace.What else can I use the External INPUT for on the oscilloscope? what have you used the external input on the oscilloscope for?
why do u have to use the external sync to 400hz to do the measurements why can't i keep it at 60hz? why does the o-scope have to be sync to 400hz?
That depends on what you want to see with the scope.
What else can I use the External INPUT for on the oscilloscope? what have you used the external input on the oscilloscope for?
Usually the EXT input is for triggering only. It cannot be displayed like another trace.
The scope triggers from a SOURCE, the user determines the source.
Only you know what sort of measurements you want to make, so I have no idea if it has to be synced up to 400Hz or not.What does it depend on? any reason why it has to be synced up to 400hz to do measurements?
If you are trying to sync up to the 400 Hz in the boards under test, then I guess you want to sync to either the 400 Hz line voltage itself or some signal that is synchronous with that 400 Hz. Not knowing what is in the circuit you are testing, there is no way I can tell what other signals there may be that are synchronous with the 400 Hz in the board. The reason I suggest some other signal and not the 400 Hz line itself is that the line 400 Hz might have to high a voltage for your EXT input, but maybe you have another signal handy that is synchronous with the 400 Hz and is only 5 volts. That would be much safer. But if you have to, you can always reduce the 400 Hz voltage with a resistive voltage divider or transformer to get a 5-volt signal that is acceptable to the EXT input.Yes I know that, but what can you use to as a signal to go to the EXT input?
This is fine if the Function Generator is actually generating the same 400 Hz that is powering the 400 Hz line to the board under test. But if it is just some other 400 Hz that is not related to the 400 Hz on the board, it will not do any good, and the trigger will still appear free-running.2.) Function Generators clock output can go to the EXT input jack
You keep talking about the 400 Hz as if it were a main. It might be a main to the board under test, but it is not a main to the scope. It is just another external signal. The only "main" that the scope knows about is the 60Hz main, so it is best not to confuse the issue by call the 400 Hz power a "main".3.) Sync the O-scope to the Main lines at a difference frequency
Of course. Because the signals you are probing have nothing to do with the 60Hz main.Ok when the Scope is triggered from a SOURCE at 60hz and I probe on the circuit board, the waveforms are Free Running.
Because that is what it means for the source and the trigger to be synchronous.When the Scope is triggered from a SOURCE at 400hz and I probe on the circuit board , the waveforms are STABLE not free running
Why is that?
I suppose it because you want to look at signals that are periodic with a period that is related to that 400 Hz.and why do I have to trigger a SOURCE at 400hz ?
That depends on what you want the scope to do. It does "work" at 60 Hz, but apparently it is not doing what you want it to do. Since I also don't know what you want it to do, I cannot help you there.I doesn't it the scope work at 60hz? I don't get it
OK, now I see why you like to call them both "mains".At work there is 2 different wall main line outputs
You either plug equipment into a 120VAC at 60hz
Or you plug equipment in to the wall at 115VAC at 400hz
Two different line main frequencys
I suppose it because you want to look at signals that are periodic with a period that is related to that 400 Hz.
Before you go any further, find out for sure if the 400 Hz main and the 60 Hz main at your work are single phase mains that have one leg tied to ground. I know that a typical 120-volt main in the USA consists of a neutral leg that is connected to ground somewhere and a hot leg that is 120-volts with respect to that neutral. But I don't know about your 400-volt feed. It might be the same sort of thing, or it might be a floating power feed from a transformer. Until you find out for sure which it is at your work, you cannot safely connect the 400 Hz main to the EXT of the scope.
This is fine if the Function Generator is actually generating the same 400 Hz that is powering the 400 Hz line to the board under test. But if it is just some other 400 Hz that is not related to the 400 Hz on the board, it will not do any good, and the trigger will still appear free-running.
Yes.The SYNC frequency ( external signal ) is like a clock right?
Yes, it can be different, but then the signal will appear to be free-running on the scope.The Time and frequency of the signal can be different than the SYNC frequency ( external signal )?
No, superimposed is the wrong word. That makes it sound like the signal and the sync are added together, which is not what happens in a scope.The Waveform is superimposed on top of the sync frequency ( external signal ) ?
It does not matter if it is a delta or a WYE. All that matters is that it is referenced to ground and not floating.Ok this I will have to try to find out at work if they know the answer, but the 115VAC at 400hz is a 3 phase , I don't know if it's delta or WYE
That is interesting. That means perhaps the board under test is floating with respect to ground. It also means that the 26-volt 400Hz might be a good way to get your EXT sync, since it is a lower and safer voltage, once you find out how to reference the board to ground.The 115VAC at 400hz goes to a AC ratio step down transformer that outputs 26 VAC at 400hz , this goes to Gyros motors & Syncro motors
It will not work as your EXT sync because no function generator frequency is perfect. It says 400Hz, but really it might be 399.99 Hz. And your "400 Hz" main might actually be 400.01 Hz. If you use the function generator as your EXT sync, the signals from the 400 Hz line might drift very slowly through the display. It would be free running, but it would run by very slowly. Maybe that is OK for you. Maybe you don't mind seeing the display drift slowly, depending on what sort of measurements you are trying to make. If you are trying to make precise phase measurements, the drifting display would make that impossible. But if you only want to see the shape of the Channel 1 signal, maybe a slow drift would not be a problem and you could use the signal generator as your EXT sync. I have done things like that when a true sync signal was not available.The function generators output is 400hz , it's the same frequency why won't it work? i don't get it?
The SYNC frequency ( external signal ) is like a clock right? YES
The Waveform is superimposed on top of the sync frequency ( external signal ) ?
No, superimposed is the wrong word. That makes it sound like the signal and the sync are added together, which is not what happens in a scope.
All that matters is that it is referenced to ground and not floating.Ok this I will have to try to find out at work if they know the answer, but the 115VAC at 400hz is a 3 phase , I don't know if it's delta or WYE
It does not matter if it is a delta or a WYE.
The 115VAC at 400hz goes to a AC ratio step down transformer that outputs 26 VAC at 400hz , this goes to Gyros motors & Syncro motors
That is interesting. That means perhaps the board under test is floating with respect to ground. It also means that the 26-volt 400Hz might be a good way to get your EXT sync, since it is a lower and safer voltage, once you find out how to reference the board to ground.
How the scope behaves depends not only on what sync is selected (60Hz or 500Hz) but also on the sweep rate selection and on the trigger type (AUTO or NORMAL). All I can say in general is that when 60Hz is selected, the sweep will be triggered 60 times per second and if 400 Hz is selected, the sweep will be triggered 400 times per second.What's the difference between a 1Khz waveform sync to a 60hz external signal VS a 1Khz waveform sync to a 400hz external signal?
Yes, it is the same waveform, but it looks different when each sweep of the scope display starts at a different point in the 1kHz waveform. That gives the display the free-running appearance.It's the same frequency at 1Khz waveform , the only difference is the Sync frequency ( external signal )
Sourcing is the synchronization , the O scope is defaulted at 60hz, the horizontal bean circuit is going across the display at 60hz[/quote]What's the difference between triggering and Sourcing?
I might start by studying the schematic of that board to see if I could figure out what those waveforms are supposed to represent. If the schematic was not available, I might start from my knowledge of what function this circuit board is supposed to perform. If I didn't even know what the board was supposed to do, then I would probably give up.If I brought you a circuit board and had 10 outputs waveforms and I didn't tell you what the line or sync frequency was , how would you know what to SYNC , SOURCE, TRIGGER the O -scope to?
Instead of any EXT sync selection, I would select Internal so as to use the waveform I am displaying as its own sync source. Then I would try various sweep rates until I could see one cycle of the signal displayed. Then I could estimate the frequency from the measured period on that display.How would you find out the external signals frequency without me tell you what is it?
I might call it a clock, or a sync signal. But what difference does it make what I call it?What would you call it a clock or what would you call it since it's not really a clock? what is the right name for it?
I would call it a waveform that is displayed with an external sync.True, Since the waveform is no superimposed, what would it be called?
Ah, a very good question. It matters because when you connect a signal to scope, that signal must be referenced to the ground of the scope. This is true whether the signal is a display channel or an EXT sync input. If the signal itself is floating with respect to ground, you are going to have to connect the ground of the scope to whatever point in the circuit the signal is referenced form. For example, the 26-volt isolation transformer you spoke of has two wires coming out. If you want to connect the scope to one of those wires, then the ground of the scope has to be connected to the other wire. If that other wire was actually 200 volts above ground, then your scope (if it is not a grounded scope) will now have its chassis ground elevated to 200 volts above ground, so that if you touch it, and some part of you is grounded, you will be electrocuted. Or, if the scope is grounded, then connecting the ground of the scope to that 200 volt reference will short out that 200 volts, possibly destroying some circuitry, or at least blowing a fuse. On the other hand, if the output of the isolation transformer is truly floating, then it can be pushed around to any voltage you like (including ground) and it will not complain. You need to find out ahead of time which of these scenarios is the case and respond accordingly. It takes a thorough understanding of circuit board you are testing to answer this question. There are some empirical tests, like trying to gently force a voltage onto a point in the circuit that might be floating and seeing how much current that point draws from your "forcing". However it is much better if you just know what is going on without having to test it empirically.Why does it matter if the circuit is reference to ground or floating? what would it change?
Not necessarily. If it is truly floating, then it can be tied to ground without any problems. And then you can connect it to the scope. There are also battery operated scopes that are very well suited to scoping floating circuits, because the scope floats with the circuit.TRUE , the secondary side is floating , so you can't use this as a reference because it's floating right?
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