thanks, yes, , but as you know, I am not speaking of programming mode here...so I wonder if raising the mclr pin above vdd makes some of the pins go randomly output high or low?......I am pretty sure that when the mclr pin is raised above vdd, all the pins are supposed to go high Z..but they actually don't, (due to a known malfunction with microcontrollers) , they go randomly output high or low....(I know this because you can sometimes here connected relays chattering as the ports misbehave as described.