webald0
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As a rule of thumb, the voltage between base and emitter is about 0.6V.how can i calculate Base currents/voltages?
Good thinking. Let's start with the voltage gain stage and Vbe multiplier, referring to the schematic below (which I copied from your link, so I hope it's the right one).First thing is to do a DC analysis.....
What we can do is a sort of "worst case" analysis, to calculate the highest value the base current might be. For example a BC546 with Ic = 1mA should have an hFE of at least 100, so base current should be less than about 10uA. We dont know whether it's 10uA or 2uA, but we do know it's not more than about 10uA.
For the given supply voltage, the current through R9 and R10 is about 5mA. This is also Q4's collector current, and the current flowing through the Vbe multiplier.Looking at the Vbe multiplier: To bias the output stage correctly, Q9 must have about 1.2V between collector and emitter, i.e. about 0.6V across each of R16 and VR1. So VR1 will be set to about 1K and there will be about 0.6mA flowing through R16 and VR1. Since we started with 5mA, the other 4.4mA must flow through Q9. Since Q9's hFE is at least about 110, the base current must be less than about 0.04mA.
Since Q9's base current is at least 10 times smaller than the current flowing through R16 and VR1, it doesn't really effect the calculation - we can forget about it.
Moving on to Q4....
Collector current is about 5mA and the hFE is lousy - the datasheet says hFE = 40 to 160 at Ic = 150mA (IIRC), but at 5mA it may be worse. So Q4's base current may be as high as 0.1mA or even a bit more. At the same time Vbe = about 0.6V, so there's about 1mA flowing through R6.
Added together, that means Q1's collector current is probably a bit more than 1mA.
Which brings us (at last) to the input stage and current source.
I don't know exactly what the forward voltage of the green LED is, but it will be high enough to ensure Q3's collector current is more than 2mA. How much more is a bothersome question, but let's assume Rod's done his homework and designed the circuit so so that the collector currents of Q1 and Q2 are roughly equal i.e. about 1 to 1.5mA each.
This time the base currents actually are important, and cause a slight problem.
Q1's base current flows through R2 and R3 causing a small voltage drop across them, while Q2's base current flows through R5 causing a small voltage drop across it.
If those two voltage drops are equal and the Vbe of Q1 and Q2 are the same, then there will be zero DC voltage between the amplifiers output and ground. That's highly unlikely though, so there's going to be some (unwanted) DC voltage across the loudspeaker. Let's try figure out how bad it is:
To start with, according to the datasheet the difference between the Vbe's could be as much as 150mV, even if the currents through Q1 and Q2 are the same. Hopefully it won't be that bad though and there's not much you can do about it anyway unless you want to take time out to measure individual transistors and select matched pairs.
Then there's the voltage drop across the resistors. Since Ic is probably a bit over 1mA each for Q1 and Q2, and hFE may not be much over 100, the base currents could be as high as about 10uA, but may also be much lower. The worst case here is if the base currents are very different.
e.g. If the base current is 10uA for one transistor and 2uA for the other, this will cause a DC offset across the speaker of about 8uA * 22K = 176mV.
That's not bad, but there is something we can do to improve it. Without using matched transistors, the next best thing is to use transistors with higher hFE, i.e. choose BC546B rather than BC546A. The "A" suffix indicates hFE = 110 to 220, while the "B" suffix indicates hFE = 200 to 450. Even better, use BC547C or BC550C, which have hFE = 420 to 800. (BC546 isn't available in the "C" grade).
To be honest; when I did the calculation the first time I was sloppy - I didn't bother to figure out whether 4.4mA was the collector current or the emitter current. That's because it doesn't make much difference. Since hFE > 100, there is less than 1% difference between collector current and emitter current, so you get less than 1% error if you calculate the base current using the wrong value.but i found a problem here. 5mA is Vbe multiplier, R9,R10 and Q4 collector current. 5mA-0.6mA=4.4mA. But 4.4mA is not flowing through Q9 collector because there is small amount current that goes as base current to Q5. Maybe this is too much asking, but this is one more thing that bothers me, how to get this base current..
That's an interesting question.Lets suppose that Base resistors are the same, and the Base currents are the same. When i raise resistance of one side (therefore, currents drops on that side and base current on Q2 raises), how to calculate how much has the other current raised? How to get that ratio?
Hi, sorry for the delay
To be honest; when I did the calculation the first time I was sloppy - I didn't bother to figure out whether 4.4mA was the collector current or the emitter current. That's because it doesn't make much difference. Since hFE > 100, there is less than 1% difference between collector current and emitter current, so you get less than 1% error if you calculate the base current using the wrong value.
Strictly Ib = Ic / hFE
or Ib = Ie / (hFE + 1)
Anyway, I worked it out properly now and it turns out 4.4mA actually is the collector current after all, as shown below.
Obviously for higher hFE, the base current will be even lower. The point is that whatever the hFE, the base current will be much lower than the current through the resistor and trimmer, so it won't affect things much - the trimmer will need to be set fairly close to 1K, it's center value.
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What's more interesting is to consider the effect of different VBEs.
For example, let's assume:
Now the picture is as shown below. Since the voltage across the trimpot is 0.7V and the current through it is 0.36mA, it will have to be turned up almost to the maximum value (2K).
- Vbe of the driver transistors in the output stage is less than 0.6V, so we need a total bias voltage across the Vbe muliplier of 1.1V instead of 1.2V.
- Vbe of the Vbe muliplier transistor = 0.7V.
- Thus Vcb is only 0.4V.
Thanks for this, you made Vbe multiplier role in amplifier much closer to understand now
That's an interesting question.
I suspect you're thinking in terms of the first circuit you showed in post 1, with the resistors from both bases connected to ground. In that case the calculation of what happens if you change one of the resistor's values is quite tricky. (i.e. I'm not tempted to spend the next 1/2 hour trying to figure it out:-D).
Fortunately we don't have to because in the actual amplifier the resistor from the base of the right hand transistor goes to the output of the amp not to ground, and that actually makes things easier.
Remember there's a lot of negative feedback around the circuit, so it's trying very hard to keep the currents through the input transistors constant (and keeping the voltage between their bases constant).
What this means is that when you change the value of the resistors, the voltage across them changes while the base current through them remains almost the same. The amplifier's output voltage changes to whatever value is needed to to keep the currents from changing.
I'll do a sim and post the results to show what I mean a bit later.
I already made a sim and thats 100% true. My problem is as always mathematically to get that base currents but now, after few days of trying to figure it out, i figured that its not so important to have this currents so precisely calculated. I know that Ib1<Ib2 (and also Ic1<Ic2) because Rb1>Rb2.
Oh, OK. More sloppiness on my part - I just ignored thatAnd i know that base current of Q9 is so small that its irrelevant, but the base current what i need to know is Q5 base current. Because of that Q5 base current, Q4`s collector current won`t be 4.4mA, it will be 4.4-Ib5=?
I expect you've got the output stage idling current set too high. Either that or hFE is even worse than I used in the calculation above.In my simulation Q5`s base current is 0.18mA....
Here's a nice simplified circuit. It leaves out the output stage, but models the DC conditions elsewhere quite well.
I tried it first with R1 = R2 = 22K as shown. Then I tried it with first R2 then R1 changed to 47K, to see what difference that makes to the DC conditions. Here's the results:
When I started out, I thought four significant digits would be enough to show the differences. Turns out five digits would have been better for the currents. Drat.
Anyway, it does illustrate the point I was trying to make - when you double the value of either resistor, the base and collector currents only change by about 0.1%, if that.
OTOH, the output voltage changes all the way from from -57mV to +124mV. That's the DC offset across the speaker I was talking about in post 2.
Let's start by assuming the collector currents of the output transistors (Q7 and Q8) are both about 100mA. That's actually a fairly safe assumption since the whole point of the trimpot in the Vbe multiplier is that it lets you set the quiescent current in the output stage to 100mA.
That's OK.i couldn`t find a MJL21193 transistors used in Rod Elliots P3A so i used MJE350 & MJE340 just for simulation,
Sort of. Changing the transistors will change the output stage current, even if you swap one transistor for another transistor with the same part number. That's why the trimpot is there - it lets you set the current to the desired value despite the differences between transistors.so i have 300mA in my output stage. Is that because of transistors?
If the current is set too low, the distortion gets much worse.why is Vbe multiplier setting output stage to 100mA?
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