[SOLVED] Diagnose Bad Component In PCI Audio Card

[kraka]

I have not electronics background but after two technicians refuse to repair my Audio Card, (maybe they did not have time, or they underestimate my card, althouth it is an excellent one), i decided to try, at least, fix it.
My Audio Card (PCI type) stopped having sound. After a closer inspection with a known technique (because i do not own a thermocamera) i saw that after injected 5 or more volts to pin no57 of side A of the Card, which has a label : AD(02) and a description : "I/O signal (May be driven by initiator or target, depending on operation)", and maybe means Address or Data bus ?, two components that are located very close to each other,
1)the ALTERA EPM 7064S1C44-10 BFB249919 EMU98 9946 and
2) : the P98AB VT244 , are getting hot very quickly.
They are getting hot even if the Card snap onto the motherboard, and Windows boots up.
P98AB VT244 is a component with 10 legs on the right and 10 on the left side. I do not know what is this, but i read somewhere that it is a Line Driver (what is this ?) or Amplifier. I search on web for a replacement but find nothing except this : 74LVT244 and SN54LVT244. I do not know at all, if i can replace P98AB VT244 with 74LVT244 or SN54LVT244.
The bad think is that i learned that the ALTERA is a programmable IC, and that i cannot just replace it with a new one. I must first program it with the "program" that is now inside the ALTERA on my Card, but i do not have this "program" (even if i had it, i do not know how to do it).
So my hope is the initial component that cause heat rising on the ALTERA to be the P98AB VT244. So if i replace it (the P98AB VT244) with a new one, both stop warming up and problem will be fixed.

But how to know which of those two is broken ? How to diagnose ?

I am attaching a picture of my card (Side B). I have drawn two red arrows, one bigger than the other. The big one points to the ALTERA EPM 7064S1C44-10 BFB249919 EMU98 9946 and the small one to the P98AB VT244.

Any other suggestion or idea, on how to try to make it have sound, are welcome.
Card is detected by Windows in "device manager", but cannot install any driver. I tried tones of drivers and all the OS's, from its native Win95-98 to Win7.
Before the problem occurred, it was installed in my WinXP PC with no problem. I am not sure 100% but maybe problem related with a faulty PSU that i have bougth at this time (have replaced later).

 

[KlausST]

Hi,

I guess the most important information would be: Audio card manufacturer and exact type.

Klaus

 

[kraka]

Hi,

I guess the most important information would be: Audio card manufacturer and exact type.

Klaus

Audio card manufacturer :
As you can see in the attached photo in my first post, It is placed with big letters on the top of the Card, and it is EMU.

Exact type : APS (Audio Production Studio).

If you are under 40, probably you have never heard of this card.

 

[betwixt]

Some of us are nearer twice that age!

The '244' is almost certainly an interface to the black socket beside it so a 74LVT244 should work as an equivalent. That device is written at one side and read on the other, the input side has no capability to read anything back so if you are not using the black connector you can probably remove the IC to eliminate the problem with no adverse effects.

The Altera device is a programable logic device (PLD), your only option would be to buy one from the card manufacturer and the chances of them carrying spares, even when in production, is very slim. Usually cards like that are sent out to sub-contracted assembly plants and the named manufacturer never sees any individual parts. It is normal for them to run warm.

Brian.

 

[FvM]

after injected 5 or more volts to pin no57 of side A of the Card

The card is 3.3/5V PCI and can accept up to 5V bus line voltage (not more!), but only if 5V power supply is applied simultaneously. Thus I wonder if the card has been damaged by your test.

Initially it could have been a problem of missing/incorrect driver (working under WinXP, failling on a new PC).

 

[kraka]

Some of us are nearer twice that age!

The '244' is almost certainly an interface to the black socket beside it so a 74LVT244 should work as an equivalent. That device is written at one side and read on the other, the input side has no capability to read anything back so if you are not using the black connector you can probably remove the IC to eliminate the problem with no adverse effects.

The Altera device is a programable logic device (PLD), your only option would be to buy one from the card manufacturer and the chances of them carrying spares, even when in production, is very slim. Usually cards like that are sent out to sub-contracted assembly plants and the named manufacturer never sees any individual parts. It is normal for them to run warm.

Brian.

Brian, thanks for your information. They are very important to me.
Three points gives me hope :

1) Maybe if i remove the "244" there will be no adverse effects.
When you are talking about the "black socket beside" do you mean the one to the right of the "244", or the top ? It is important, because the top one it will, for sure, be used because it is the E-Drive connector ie connect the Card with the second part (i did not attached a picture)), which is also another Card with the difference that it is external and carries the inputs for Guitars, Mics etc, and it is placed in front of the PC (this card has no problem). The other socket, on the right, it is the connector for Games Joystick, or the connector for expand connections (i am away from the card now and i do not remember exactly which of two,is), so i will not use it.

2)The 74LVT244 should work as an equivalent.

3)The ALTERA is normal to run warm.
Although it is getting very hot (but not in a point that it will burned), this information makes me happy, only with the idea that maybe it is not broken.
Bad news is that when i was looking in market (web) for this IC, i was in a site (i cannot remember what site) and the price was little less than 800$.
I know that the value of this card is much $$$, but i bought the card before 6-7 years (second hand) for ~150$. So i think i cannot give so much money.

--- Updated Sep 23, 2024 ---

The card is 3.3/5V PCI and can accept up to 5V bus line voltage (not more!), but only if 5V power supply is applied simultaneously. Thus I wonder if the card has been damaged by your test.

Initially it could have been a problem of missing/incorrect driver (working under WinXP, failling on a new PC).

I am afraid that maybe you are right, because i injected, maybe up to 12 Volts, but not for long. Only for 4-5 seconds (or less). I think the Amps at that time was 1 to 2, i cannot remember.
I will be very unlucky if i made this mistake, because i am trying for a very long time to repair it (more than a year). But i had not any other chances. I had to do something. Until then, i did everything i could and i used every knowledge i had and buy every equipment i could (soldering station). To understand what i am saying : i made a microscope (from a preexisting smaller) in order to make inspection and soldering more comfortably and "professional".

It is not the drivers (95%), because it worked normally under WinXP, when i first bought it. Besides my PC is not a new machine. I built it especially to work with two Audio Cards :
1)The EMU APS.
2) The Audigy 4.
Because the last OS where EMU APS works (with variation drivers), was XP, but some of the programs i worked with, needed Win7 and up, i had built a dual boot PC, with two OS's (WinXP and Win7). XP hosted the EMU and i used it only for recordings (Guitar, Mics, etc), and Win7 hosted the Audigy4 and used it only for notation software (Sibelius), DAW's (FruityLoop), Wave Editors (CoolEdit) etc.
Also it had 3 HDD's, one of them was PATA (the one with WinXP) and the other two SATA (Win7 and for storing Sound Libraries etc.)
As you understand all these to work together it was, not at all, easy. I had to find a Motherboard that combine, in its features, all these. It was very difficult, also, to spot all these in the market and buy them.
Anyway, after all, Card stopped having sound, and now i am trying to find little help from people that have more knowledge and experience, than me...

 

[KlausST]

because i injected, maybe up to 12 Volts, but not for long. Only for 4-5 seconds (or less)

In this case ... maybe even a millisecond is long enough to destroy something.

Klaus

 

[kraka]

Brian, thanks for your information. They are very important to me.
Three points gives me hope :

1) Maybe if i remove the "244" there will be no adverse effects.
When you are talking about the "black socket beside" do you mean the one to the right of the "244", or the top ? It is important, because the top one it will, for sure, be used because it is the E-Drive connector ie connect the Card with the second part (i did not attached a picture)), which is also another Card with the difference that it is external and carries the inputs for Guitars, Mics etc, and it is placed in front of the PC (this card has no problem). The other socket, on the right, it is the connector for Games Joystick, or the connector for expand connections (i am away from the card now and i do not remember exactly which of two,is), so i will not use it.

2)The 74LVT244 should work as an equivalent.

3)The ALTERA is normal to run warm.
Although it is getting very hot (but not in a point that it will burned), this information makes me happy, only with the idea that maybe it is not broken.
Bad news is that when i was looking in market (web) for this IC, i was in a site (i cannot remember what site) and the price was little less than 800$.
I know that the value of this card is much $$$, but i bought the card before 6-7 years (second hand) for ~150$. So i think i cannot give so much money.

--- Updated Sep 23, 2024 ---

I am afraid that maybe you are right, because i injected, maybe up to 12 Volts, but not for long. Only for 4-5 seconds (or less). I think the Amps at that time was 1 to 2, i cannot remember.
I will be very unlucky if i made this mistake, because i am trying for a very long time to repair it (more than a year). But i had not any other chances. I had to do something. Until then, i did everything i could and i used every knowledge i had and buy every equipment i could (soldering station). To understand what i am saying : i made a microscope (from a preexisting smaller) in order to make inspection and soldering more comfortably and "professional".

It is not the drivers (95%), because it worked normally under WinXP, when i first bought it. Besides my PC is not a new machine. I built it especially to work with two Audio Cards :
1)The EMU APS.
2) The Audigy 4.
Because the last OS where EMU APS works (with variation drivers), was XP, but some of the programs i worked with, needed Win7 and up, i had built a dual boot PC, with two OS's (WinXP and Win7). XP hosted the EMU and i used it only for recordings (Guitar, Mics, etc), and Win7 hosted the Audigy4 and used it only for notation software (Sibelius), DAW's (FruityLoop), Wave Editors (CoolEdit) etc.
Also it had 3 HDD's, one of them was PATA (the one with WinXP) and the other two SATA (Win7 and for storing Sound Libraries etc.)
As you understand all these to work together it was, not at all, easy. I had to find a Motherboard that combine, in its features, all these. It was very difficult, also, to spot all these in the market and buy them.
Anyway, after all, Card stopped having sound, and now i am trying to find little help from people that have more knowledge and experience, than me...

I think, that Brian, when said about the "black connector beside" meant the one on the right, because i saw the details around the "244" and there are connections with resistances, and these resistances goes to the black connector on the right side of the "244" which is for the joistic or for the expansions. So if i remove the "244" i will not have a big problem. Next days i will try to remove the "244". Cross my fingers...

 

[kraka]

Unfortunately, i think this is the end.
I am very sad.

Just a moment ago VT244 was de-soldered and removed, then the card was connected into the motherboard and booted into Windows. The ALTERA immediately got very hot, and by "hot" i mean i cannot hold my finger on it more than two seconds.

I guess it is useless to replace the +5 Volt Regulator that instead of 5Volts, gives 3.88.

Why cannot replace ALTERA ? I do not want to steal anybodies copyright. I just want to replace it, to buy it (I looked it up again and found it in a store for a few dollars), for fixing the Card that i have bought.
I just wanted to write music...

 

[betwixt]

You can replace the Altera device, blank ones are still available. What you need is the JEDEC file to program a new one and the hardware to actually load the program inside the device. The chances of obtaining the file are almost zero, only the card manufacturer would have it and even if they still exist, they would be unlikely to release something copyrighted and costing thousands of $$$ to develop. The programming hardware alone would cost many times as much as a new equivalent or second hand card.

Brian.

 

[kraka]

You can replace the Altera device, blank ones are still available. What you need is the JEDEC file to program a new one and the hardware to actually load the program inside the device. The chances of obtaining the file are almost zero, only the card manufacturer would have it and even if they still exist, they would be unlikely to release something copyrighted and costing thousands of $$$ to develop. The programming hardware alone would cost many times as much as a new equivalent or second hand card.

Brian.

Brian, thanks again for your interesting and your reply. I really appreciate it, I want to say something and I am not addressing you. I will speak in general. I understand everything you have said and I welcome it.
I don't want the JEDEC file. What can I do with it? Sell it and make money? I want ALTERA with a program inside. My goal is not this particular program, and the patented work it contains, but a component that works. It's like your car's tire breaks down and you have to throw away the whole car. Nobody want the patented formula for build the tire, but the tire itself.
Maybe it is impossible what i want, after 25 years from the first time this Card was in the market, but i think the same would have happened in the first, second etc year from its release and after the guarantee would have expired.
Anyway thank you, very, very much for your willing to help me, and also thanks everybody on this forum who tried to help me. It is, really, a good forum with people having real knowledge and kindness.

 

[betwixt]

Thank you for your kind words.
Just to explain, Altera is/was a generic IC manufacturer, specializing in devices called PLD (Programmable Logic Device). Its a kind of uncommitted array of logic gates and a memory that maps how they interconnect with each other and to the outside pins. The JEDEC file is the contents of that memory, think of it as a route map for the signals between otherwise generic logic modules. The file is produced by the audio card manufacturer to customize the IC for their specific needs, the same IC could be used for other purposes in a different situation. JEDEC files are just a list of interconnections inside the IC, in themselves they have no meaning, in route terms think of it as being "turn right, go ahead two blocks, turn left, go ahead one block, turn right.." but with no start and end point so out of context it has no meaning.

If you had the JEDEC file, and the necessary hardware to load the program into a blank Altera EPM70645, you could make make a replacement IC yourself. Having access to the file would allow competitors to do the same, hence it being a closely guarded secret. Unfortunately for you, once programmed the device can be tested and even erased and reprogrammed but data already inside it can't be read back.

Brian.

 

[kraka]

Thank you for your kind words.
Just to explain, Altera is/was a generic IC manufacturer, specializing in devices called PLD (Programmable Logic Device). Its a kind of uncommitted array of logic gates and a memory that maps how they interconnect with each other and to the outside pins. The JEDEC file is the contents of that memory, think of it as a route map for the signals between otherwise generic logic modules. The file is produced by the audio card manufacturer to customize the IC for their specific needs, the same IC could be used for other purposes in a different situation. JEDEC files are just a list of interconnections inside the IC, in themselves they have no meaning, in route terms think of it as being "turn right, go ahead two blocks, turn left, go ahead one block, turn right.." but with no start and end point so out of context it has no meaning.

If you had the JEDEC file, and the necessary hardware to load the program into a blank Altera EPM70645, you could make make a replacement IC yourself. Having access to the file would allow competitors to do the same, hence it being a closely guarded secret. Unfortunately for you, once programmed the device can be tested and even erased and reprogrammed but data already inside it can't be read back.

Brian.

Just out of curiosity, let's take a trip through time. It's 1999, the year this card was released (if I'm not mistaken, but the exact year isn't important) and you are giving $700 of your savings because you're not rich, to buy it. After 20 months, and when guaranty has expired, there is a failure on the PLD , not necessary from your mistake but also from another's component failure or from a failure of the PLD itself (it is not important if it is ALTERA or other brand) . Then what would have happen ? Lost your 700$ ?
My question is not rhetorical . It needs answer, if somebody had this experience.

 

[betwixt]

You would be at the mercy of the manufacturer or possibly the retailer unless they offered extended guarantees. That's life I'm afraid. More often than not, the manufacturer is no longer around, especially if they are from Asia, or they are still in business but using a different brand name to divorce themselves from earlier products.

As for experience, yes for hardware and yes for software. I once spent a fortune on high-end video editing software, only a few days later the company was taken over (by a very large and well known multinational) and the license verification servers were turned off. The new company owner renamed the same software but refused to honor previous customers. Many of my $$$ down the drain and less than a weeks use of the product. The thought of suing one of the worlds biggest companies (think of fruit) doesn't bear consideration.

Brian.

 

[barry]

I think you mean warranty, not guarantee. If the warranty has expired, yes, you're out $700. The company is under no legal obligation. But why do you even ask this question, 25 years later?

 

[BradtheRad]

More than once I've seen similar observations regarding computer equipment and operating systems. Microsoft and Apple are powerfully motivated to come out with new machines which obsolete not-very-old machines. They obligate customers to keep up with the latest and greatest wherever it leads them and their money. Same with peripheral manufacturers and software vendors. It helps if we know our way in the used market.

 

[D.A.(Tony)Stewart]

E-MU and Turtle Beach had good audio cards. But when any card operating under those legacy OS's did not respond to an I/O you get the classic BSOD. So the IRQ's and I/O designs were changed in subsequent OS's to prevent these famous blue screens. The same occurred with video cards, which is one reason why drivers do not exist.

So now you have learned a few valuable lessons. Repairing complex A/V cards is hard. Attempts to repair without understanding the risks from ESD and power sequencing Vss before applying signals will prevent latchup (thermal issue) Fortunately the 'LVT244 had 500 mA latchup protection but over-voltage is a sure way to kill a chip due to the logic shoot-thru design active Hi/Lo drivers crossover disappears and essentially both hi/lo drivers are active and short out the supply across any driver (8) port when over-voltage exists. (>7V to signal and > 4.5 on Vdd supply) The T in LVT stands for TTL compatible threshold (1.5V) so they are designed to run at 3.3V but can accept 5V5 inputs without shootthru. The 244's are simply bus drivers with 10x the current ability of the 32 IO Altera so that would be the 16 bit word on the PCI bus with 2 chips.

The repairs guys that refused you already knew this as well as the lack of data file for the programmable Altera CPLD.

The good news is you can buy the old E-MU's for 60 bucks on eBay and put them back in your Win 98 or XP box whatever worked and look for a compatible sound card with over 90 dB SNR online. Last week I drooled over a pair of 3m tall x1m electrostatic speakers in Yerevan with a matching pair in Tehran that sold for $15k.
Sound cards are cheap now in volume but I'd check out Turtle Beach these days if I were you. But if you were smarter than me you'd toss windows and go full MAC to run all your DAWS and Yamaha's.

Remember when Tandy sold $5k PC's? ... it didn't mean they were great.

 

[kraka]

You would be at the mercy of the manufacturer or possibly the retailer unless they offered extended guarantees. That's life I'm afraid. More often than not, the manufacturer is no longer around, especially if they are from Asia, or they are still in business but using a different brand name to divorce themselves from earlier products.

As for experience, yes for hardware and yes for software. I once spent a fortune on high-end video editing software, only a few days later the company was taken over (by a very large and well known multinational) and the license verification servers were turned off. The new company owner renamed the same software but refused to honor previous customers. Many of my $$$ down the drain and less than a weeks use of the product. The thought of suing one of the worlds biggest companies (think of fruit) doesn't bear consideration.

Brian.

Jungle, my friend. Jungle...
I will write a piece of music called "Jungle" and i will dedicate to you

--- Updated Sep 28, 2024 ---

I think you mean warranty, not guarantee. If the warranty has expired, yes, you're out $700. The company is under no legal obligation. But why do you even ask this question, 25 years later?

Answer is simple :
Because exactly the same thing can happen today.

--- Updated Sep 28, 2024 ---

The good news is you can buy the old E-MU's for 60 bucks on eBay

You do not mean an APS ? APS is belong to series of professional sound cards.

If you have found in ebay an EMU old Card, belong to this series, please provide the link to me. (Now , what does it mean "professional", i think the proper way is to examine the technical characteristics and especially the sampling rating, the A/D D/A converters and the noise). 90db SNR is, if i am not wrong, a ratio of 1000000000 to 1 for Signal o Noise ratio. It is a good one. The APS Card have 92db RMS

--- Updated Sep 28, 2024 ---

But if you were smarter than me you'd toss windows and go full MAC to run all your DAWS and Yamaha's.

I fully agree. But of course you will know the cost of these devices.

 

[KlausST]

90db SNR is, if i am not wrong, a ratio of 1000000000 to 1 for Signal o Noise ratio. It is a good one. The APS Card have 92db RMS

90 dB divided by 20 gives 4.5

4 --> results in "0000"
5 --> results in about "3"
--> "3 0000"
so in total I expect a ratio of 1:30,000

****
1000000000 ... has 9 zeroes
9 x 20dB ... results in 180dB

just over the thumb....

Klaus

 

[D.A.(Tony)Stewart]

Right not the APS system, just the E-MU PCI card

E-MU PC545 PCI SOUND CARD CREATIVE | eBay

Tested, working.

www.ebay.com

Altera & 244 chips look familiar?

For a normalized audio of 1Vpk -92 dB RMS noise level for wideband spectrum if the noise was "white" means the selective narrowband SNR much higher ( by 20 log ratio of BW) but if it represents some sidetone or spurious tone then it could be noticeable between recordings.

But 70 SNR is good enuf for most recordings with compression.

I read that EPS drivers are possible with Vista installed then delete the config files and upgrade to Win7 x32 beyond that is silence.